Discussion:
Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
(too old to reply)
Andreas Thulin
2018-01-04 14:17:51 UTC
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Hi all!

Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.

Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)

I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.

Cheers,
Andreas
Christoph R. Murauer
2018-01-04 14:50:08 UTC
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Hello !

No need for flame or complain or something.

What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
seldom.

If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.

IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
list.

Regards,

Christoph
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
Lea Chescotta
2018-01-04 15:27:45 UTC
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Hi Andreas! Personally I really like the idea, i used Arch Linux for
several years and i always liked way the Arch Wiki was always updated
and containing a lot of useful data, that (i know) it's always
available in the manual pages with a lot of more useful data,
but i think it's useful to have like a brief description and usage of
the system and tools that one can then complement with the manual
pages if needed.

I writed a lot of small text files that i use for different tasks,
from video conversion and edition with ffmpeg, to system administration
of different operating systems, including OpenBSD that is the system
Im using in my personal computer for the last couple of months and that
I really love.

If you want i can share with you the text files relevant to the
installation and usage of OpenBSD that i had for personal use for you
to see if something in them is suitable for your endeavour, they cover
installation and updating processes, mainly for the stable branch that
I installed and maintain in my computer, even the installation in an
full encrypted disk, and basic setup of the environment and tools usage.

Thanks for the initiative!




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
Local Time: January 4, 2018 11:50 AM
UTC Time: January 4, 2018 2:50 PM
Hello !
No need for flame or complain or something.
What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
seldom.
If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.
IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
list.
Regards,
Christoph
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
Marko Cupać
2018-01-04 15:38:38 UTC
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Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]

[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]

As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
much more.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Bryan Harris
2018-01-04 15:41:19 UTC
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My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of PF.

I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see any.

Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.

V/r,
Bryan
Post by Marko Cupać
Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]
[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]
As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
much more.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Marko Cupać
2018-01-04 16:02:49 UTC
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On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:41:19 -0500
Post by Bryan Harris
My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of PF.
I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see any.
Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.
Couldn't agree more. Those are good books.

However, back in a day when I was completely fresh to OpenBSD, I
preferred to copy/paste someone's working solution, and then discover
which config line does what, how, and why. That's because I had no
clue about anything. It was valuable to read how people designed
solutions to their needs, what combination of software they used etc.
Only at the later stage I was able to dive into documentation.

I was particularly fond of this set of howtos:
http://www.kernel-panic.it/openbsd.html
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Base Pr1me
2018-01-04 16:13:58 UTC
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The Pledge of the Network Admin, from one of those book authors:
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-will-not-mindlessly-paste-from-howtos.html
:D
Post by Marko Cupać
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:41:19 -0500
Post by Bryan Harris
My preference is to purchase a book. I have had a good experience with
Absolute OpenBSD, Httpd & Relayd, the tarsnap book, and the Book of PF.
I would buy a book about OpenSMTPD and also ikev2 but I didn't see any.
Just my $0.02, I like books better than online tutorials.
Couldn't agree more. Those are good books.
However, back in a day when I was completely fresh to OpenBSD, I
preferred to copy/paste someone's working solution, and then discover
which config line does what, how, and why. That's because I had no
clue about anything. It was valuable to read how people designed
solutions to their needs, what combination of software they used etc.
Only at the later stage I was able to dive into documentation.
http://www.kernel-panic.it/openbsd.html
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Marko Cupać
2018-01-04 16:41:53 UTC
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On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 09:13:58 -0700
Post by Base Pr1me
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-will-not-mindlessly-paste-from-howtos.html
:D
I found this pledge quite early, and it instantly became my pledge as
well. But I think the significant word here is "mindlessly". Pasting
from howtos is not bad per se, in my opinion, as long as you gradually
get to understand what you pasted.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Nick Holland
2018-01-04 20:02:45 UTC
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Post by Marko Cupać
Feel free to contribute to [!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!]
[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/tag:openbsd]
As a side note, setting up apache and grav [https://getgrav.org/] took
me an hour or so. Writing simple article takes whole day, sometimes
much more.
bingo.

I love wikis for internal documentation. But the magic is not setting
up the wiki (or anything else for documenting), it's MAINTAINING it and
getting others to participate.

Sadly, as is proven almost daily on this list, even though it is trivial
to put crap on a website, people seem to get this idea that if it is
"found on the web, it must be true!". People don't trust google with
their personal data, but if it shows up in a google search, it must be
"vetted" some how! It must be good! No. Of course not. And yet ...

As has been demonstrated in comments on this thread and in practice,
people tend to write stuff, toss it out on the 'net, and forget about
it. This is a problem. For something like Wikipedia, facts don't
usually change as much as they do get added to. For an OS, things
actually change. What is written today and is correct becomes WRONG
next week. So everything out there has to be periodically scrubbed for
accuracy. And that creates a problem -- what if the maintainers don't
actually know everything about everything, and the original author
wanders off and isn't responsive? The obvious answer is delete the old
article ... but what if you don't even know if it needs update? (maybe
the answer is auto-removing every document that is not updated once a year)

Could it work? Yes. But not because of a discussion on misc@, but
because of a lot of people choose to make it happen.

And then, there's the problem of getting groups of people to agree on
things. For example, I looked at the first article on the mimar blog
here, and I disagree with the basic structure. Too much duplication of
installation instructions, too much "do this", too little "here's why
I'm doing this". There's some really great things in there, like the -P
command to populate the MFS file systems, without even commenting about
that nifty command people might not know about. And then you have a
bunch of echos used to create a script. boo. Just provide the script
and say "copy/paste this into your editor", or better, "here's how I did
it", and assume if someone needs to be told to copy/paste into their
editor, they shouldn't. Don't obscure the actual details with "echo ...
Post by Marko Cupać
file" crap. Now, if I'm on the administration team, do you 1) think
I'm an idiot and storm off? 2) make the changes I suggest and decide
this isn't fun and then wander off? 3) decide I'm brilliant and start
writing the "Nick Way"? (hint: it won't be #3. In this case,
hopefully, it would be #4: kick me off the administration team, since
it's YOUR server, not mine! :) )

Bonus points for actually doing it, though.

Nick.
Marko Cupać
2018-01-25 18:50:48 UTC
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Sorry for late chime-in.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:02:45 -0500
But the magic is not setting up the wiki (or anything else for
documenting), it's MAINTAINING it and getting others to participate.
...
For example, I looked at the first article on the mimar blog
here, and I disagree with the basic structure. Too much duplication
of installation instructions, too much "do this", too little "here's
why I'm doing this". There's some really great things in there, like
the -P command to populate the MFS file systems, without even
commenting about that nifty command people might not know about. And
then you have a bunch of echos used to create a script. boo. Just
provide the script and say "copy/paste this into your editor", or
better, "here's how I did it", and assume if someone needs to be told
to copy/paste into their editor, they shouldn't. Don't obscure the
actual details with "echo ...
I am doing my part! :D

I updated my article for 6.2 to include multiple disk partitions in
order to take advantage of W^X, kernel relinking etc. I also considered
your feedback and rewrote stuff without echos. There's even video
tutorial at the end of the page (I know I know everyone hates them).

!WARNING - BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW!

[https://www.mimar.rs/blog/how-to-increase-openbsds-resilience-to-power-outages]

Feedback is welcome.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
e***@pettijohn-web.com
2018-01-04 15:37:04 UTC
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Post by Lea Chescotta
Hi Andreas! Personally I really like the idea, i used Arch Linux for
several years and i always liked way the Arch Wiki was always updated
and containing a lot of useful data, that (i know) it's always
available in the manual pages with a lot of more useful data,
but i think it's useful to have like a brief description and usage of
the system and tools that one can then complement with the manual
pages if needed.
I writed a lot of small text files that i use for different tasks,
from video conversion and edition with ffmpeg, to system administration
of different operating systems, including OpenBSD that is the system
Im using in my personal computer for the last couple of months and that
I really love.
If you want i can share with you the text files relevant to the
installation and usage of OpenBSD that i had for personal use for you
to see if something in them is suitable for your endeavour, they cover
installation and updating processes, mainly for the stable branch that
I installed and maintain in my computer, even the installation in an
full encrypted disk, and basic setup of the environment and tools usage.
Thanks for the initiative!


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
Local Time: January 4, 2018 11:50 AM
UTC Time: January 4, 2018 2:50 PM
Hello !
No need for flame or complain or something.
What I can remember, there is a German wiki at http://wiki.bsdforen.de
and posts at http://bsdnow.tv booth are not up to date. And, what you
find using your prefered search engine. But OpenBSD only - extreme
seldom.
If it is useful for YOU and, YOU want it - do it.
IMHO I would start it, provide maybe here a table of contents if you
didn't start already something and, I would call for / handle that off
list.
Regards,
Christoph
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to
what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to
start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not
sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no
one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
I feel that the FAQ section covers 90% of use cases fairly well. I would recommend focusing on the more in depth issues that aren't. However I do lik
Oliver Marugg
2018-01-04 16:04:02 UTC
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Hi

In general an community driven openbsd wiki would be a good idea, for
users like me (not developers). I would participate as far I am able to.
But do not forget the OpenBSD FAQ and man pages are really well
documented (thanks devs).
-oliver
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
Marcus MERIGHI
2018-01-04 16:46:23 UTC
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Post by Andreas Thulin
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
make updates easier.
You don't know you are standing on an ancient battle ground :-)

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141611711607893
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&w=2&r=3&s=calomel

I dare to forecast the answer:
If there's a lack of documentation, improve it in-place, send patches.

Do not expect anyone to be grateful if you put information out on the
web and misc@ gets the spam because your four year old examples do not
work anymore.

Marcus
Daniel Ouellet
2018-01-04 18:35:41 UTC
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Post by Marcus MERIGHI
Post by Andreas Thulin
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would
make updates easier.
You don't know you are standing on an ancient battle ground :-)
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=141611711607893
This is NOT officially bless and it is old as the site say this is for
the community to do it, but I did that in 2004 after I was fed up with
all these comments that it should be done.

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=110029083800034&w=2

I thought to delete it for many years now but that was an exercise in
shut up and hack mentality.

Only 2 person step in 15 years to do anything and they did it may be 3
or 4 times.

The site is total SHIT!!!

But it is there is show how useless all these comments are as talks is
cheap, but doing the work, not so much.
Post by Marcus MERIGHI
If there's a lack of documentation, improve it in-place, send patches.
Obviously that wasn't a wiki, 15 years is a long time but it's proven
the point everyone talks and no one does the work.
Post by Marcus MERIGHI
Do not expect anyone to be grateful if you put information out on the
work anymore.
Amen. misc@ get a lots of crap and frankly I must admit the devs have a
very think skin to take all the sad comments you see on it.

I thought many times to delete the site, just kept it for the joke if it
I guess.

But if anyone was actually serious and I really don;t think anyone is
yet after 15 years then it could be changed.

I would be more then happy to redo it and host it like this at Equinix
in Ashburn Virginia where I have over 125 network peering connections so
connectivity is not the issue, doing the work is.

If anyone comes with a decent setup that work, I would be more then
happy to find it a home and even give some restricted shell access to
that person/persons if that's actually serious.

But experience has proven it time and time again when the subject come
up, it will die soon.

Going back under my rock...
Chris Bennett
2018-01-04 23:21:14 UTC
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Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
Your idea, at first glance, sounds like a wonderful thing. Genuinely.

But before you get your hopes up, go check out the various worldwide
community groups websites with similar attempts.

Mexico, Russia, etc.
You will find the same thing. Instructions for something to do with 5.7, all
of which is no longer applicable do to the constant change in OpenBSD.

Writing articles is not too difficult. Updating them, just doesn't happen.
Seriously, will I really want to spend the time updating an article about
something I now thoroughly understand and which has changed? Or would I
really just prefer to watch the latest movie that looks good? It's just human
nature.

If you really want to see something kept up to date, it really needs to be
within the tree of the system. As changes happen (or happened a long time ago)
the manual pages don't always reflect reality well. I would put some effort
into that. If you see something in a manual page that is just beyond you, ask
about that and see if you can write a diff to make things more clear. I find
that some manual pages would be really more helpful with just one or two
examples added. Trust me, there are many manual pages with flaws. You are
naturally going to read every manual page for all of the commands within
/bin and /sbin, right?

Trying to form a community project outside just doesn't seem to work, sadly.

But if you've got the desire to do something, then have at it. Just don't do
a ton of hard work only to be disappointed.

Have fun,
Chris Bennett
andrew fabbro
2018-01-04 20:57:57 UTC
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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Chris Bennett <
Post by Chris Bennett
But before you get your hopes up, go check out the various worldwide
community groups websites with similar attempts.
Mexico, Russia, etc.
You will find the same thing. Instructions for something to do with 5.7, all
of which is no longer applicable do to the constant change in OpenBSD.
We should wait until OpenBSD is completely done before tutorials are
written :-) Kidding...

The OpenBSD community has historically taken a different approach than That
Other Open Source OS Family, frowning on tutorials, wikis, blog howtos,
etc. in favor of saying "read the man pages, read the FAQ, read the source
code". I suspect some of this comes from the incredible craftsmanship put
into those resources. OpenBSD man pages are the best in the world, and I'd
defend them even against commercial Unixes. They're the Sistine Chapel
ceiling of man pages.

So then to turn around and see howtos written by non-devs...it's kind of
like a chess book by a GM versus one by a 1100 player. No one objects to
Michael Lucas's book because he's a fine writer.

Writing articles is not too difficult. Updating them, just doesn't happen.
Post by Chris Bennett
Seriously, will I really want to spend the time updating an article about
something I now thoroughly understand and which has changed? Or would I
really just prefer to watch the latest movie that looks good? It's just human
nature.
The situation is rather different for OpenBSD vs. other FOSS. Plenty of
people are still running Debian 7 or CentOS 5. Those tutorials have
enduring value. Relatively few people run OpenBSD from three or four
versions back (or at least, they shouldn't). Debian 7 or Scientific Linux
6 or whatever is a branch with ongoing support and intended to be a lasting
product, whereas OpenBSD is always a moving target. There are no "OpenBSD
LTS" versions.

So while I might legitimately consume a 5-year-old Linux tutorial and find
it's still very applicable if you're still on Debian 7, deploying, reading
and trying to use a 5-year-old OpenBSD tutorial would not be helpful.

Trying to form a community project outside just doesn't seem to work, sadly.
Post by Chris Bennett
But if you've got the desire to do something, then have at it. Just don't do
a ton of hard work only to be disappointed.
I do think there's a gap between man pages/source code and practical
instructions on how to fix a problem or deploy a solution. But the problem
you highlight is very real - things get out of date very fast.

Ultimately, this is like the thread recently on using something other than
CVS. The onus is on the proposer to demonstrate value.
--
andrew fabbro
***@fabbro.org
Allan Streib
2018-01-04 21:33:04 UTC
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read the man pages, read the FAQ, read the source code
I have to say that I've found that in most cases the man pages and FAQ
will get you a long way. If you're a new arrival from the linux world,
used to googling for how-to blog posts, this will not be expected or
habitual. Try it, and you might be surprised.

Allan
Thuban
2018-01-04 18:36:48 UTC
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Post by Andreas Thulin
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
yes, see here : https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php

It's mainly in french, but I don't know what is your favourite language.

regards
--
thuban
Peter N. M. Hansteen
2018-01-04 21:26:04 UTC
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Post by Andreas Thulin
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
There have been several similar efforts, but unfortunately in almost all
of these cases apparently life has happened to the people involved and
maintenance stopped.

The main barrier here is not the choice of tools (although I must admit
that for a certain project requiring people to get the DSSSL toolchain
up in order to be able to hand over validated DocBook SGML may have been
setting a high-ish bar) or even how much you know about the subject at
hand when you start out. There are examples of good tech books that
started out as lab notes while learning a subject, for example.

If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.

That said, as others have pointed out already, articles, tutorials and
such can be very useful and making these materials I think should be
encouraged. Putting together material to share about a subject you care
about is great fun even if it takes som effort, and with a bit of luck
what you produce will be useful to others.

However, if you want the material to *stay* useful you will need to
commit time and effort to *maintain* it so it stays up to date and
relevant.

There are too many cases out there where some abandoned document is so
out of date that it's actively harmful or at least very confusing to a
newcomer. In these cases it would have been a lot more useful if the
material was simply deleted.
--
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Aaron Mason
2018-04-12 00:26:32 UTC
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Post by Peter N. M. Hansteen
If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
This. I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
without demur and on the website the next day. If you have a change
to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
That's what keeps me coming back.
Theo de Raadt
2018-04-12 03:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Aaron Mason
Post by Peter N. M. Hansteen
If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
This. I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
without demur and on the website the next day. If you have a change
to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
That's what keeps me coming back.
We rarely commit the proposed fixes that people didn't submit.
Good to keep in mind.

On the other hand, we do get flooded. Keep that in mind also.
Zeb Packard
2018-04-12 04:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Not a wiki, but if the mailing list is too busy daemon forums
has a community driven Guides and Howtos section.

http://daemonforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=31
Mike Burns
2018-04-12 23:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Zeb Packard
Not a wiki, but if the mailing list is too busy daemon forums
has a community driven Guides and Howtos section.
Here's a discussion about the idea of docs outside of man pages and FAQ:
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151507550418796&w=2
Zeb Packard
2018-04-13 01:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thanks, I like http://openbsd101.com/

This looks similar
Jan Lambertz
2018-04-13 18:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up and
running config for xy.
I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to the
user and man(1)
Zeb Packard
2018-04-14 06:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
OpenBSD's man pages are a work of art. There's a cohesiveness to the base
that "feels" like concrete, like you can build anything on top of it.I
can't think of a lot of software projects that claim "correctness" as a
goal. Aerospace, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, SQL(?) and some academic
exercises?! I remember reading "correctness" as an OpenBSD goal and
wondering what the fuck was wrong with the world? Why is a "correct"
operating system the outcast, the underdog?

Correctness is the thing with OpenBSD (IMHO). When a system is correct -
you don't need the regular gamut of crap in order to figure out what the
frak's going on. A little trial and error, investigation, asking the
"right" people the "right" questions, self reliance, persistence, and a
little picking the lock will get you "in". Exploration, experimentation,
explanation - dope it out.

That said, if a prospect doesn't want to "pick the lock" & just wants the
"key" they don't belong here. Keys cost money, pickin' locks/turnin'
wrenches - that's free, been true since wayBack. If you want to ride -
RIDE. If you can't drive - stick your thumb out and stfu.

Plenty of people will read this, think it's bullshit and get further than I
could hope. Others might take it as gospel and hopefully, bounce rather
than flounce. But that's just me, ain't my show.

All the docs I got for ya!

Z
Post by Jan Lambertz
Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up and
running config for xy.
I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to the
user and man(1)
Zeb Packard
2018-04-14 06:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
*sorry
should have been

If you can't drive - stick your thumb out, stfu, and enjoy the ride.
Post by Zeb Packard
OpenBSD's man pages are a work of art. There's a cohesiveness to the base
that "feels" like concrete, like you can build anything on top of it.I
can't think of a lot of software projects that claim "correctness" as a
goal. Aerospace, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, SQL(?) and some academic
exercises?! I remember reading "correctness" as an OpenBSD goal and
wondering what the fuck was wrong with the world? Why is a "correct"
operating system the outcast, the underdog?
Correctness is the thing with OpenBSD (IMHO). When a system is correct -
you don't need the regular gamut of crap in order to figure out what the
frak's going on. A little trial and error, investigation, asking the
"right" people the "right" questions, self reliance, persistence, and a
little picking the lock will get you "in". Exploration, experimentation,
explanation - dope it out.
That said, if a prospect doesn't want to "pick the lock" & just wants the
"key" they don't belong here. Keys cost money, pickin' locks/turnin'
wrenches - that's free, been true since wayBack. If you want to ride -
RIDE. If you can't drive - stick your thumb out and stfu.
Plenty of people will read this, think it's bullshit and get further than
I could hope. Others might take it as gospel and hopefully, bounce rather
than flounce. But that's just me, ain't my show.
All the docs I got for ya!
Z
Post by Jan Lambertz
Before working with OpenBSD, I thought archlinux had good documenation, (
the wiki ). On OpenBSD I rarely need more things than the man pages, the
ports PKG docs and tailing the logfiles. But I can understand that
sometimes it feels good for short term benefits to be able to use an up and
running config for xy.
I've read the pf.conf manpage very often and still there is space for my
config to improve but I (believe) begin to understand how to configure it
properly and how it should be used. Never had that feeling with online
wikis. There I searched for xy, found an post that seems close to my
problem, copy paste, restart program and maybe it worked or not. Sometimes
this is faster but I definitely learned more with while reading manpages.
For my part I think it's not possible to build something better than the
manpages for its purpose. I do like other sources of information but this
is more about projects. Someone built xy with OpenBSD and wrote an article
about it. Share your stories via undeadly or whatever. Build an index that
lists cool OpenBSD Projects for everyone to find. And the rest is up to the
user and man(1)
Mehma Sarja
2018-04-14 16:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I think what Jan is saying is sometimes we go to the hardware store for a
particular task, like weather proofing the home. And sometimes we go to the
store just to see what they have and you might want without a particular
project in mind.

Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task. A wiki
might give you ideas that did not occur to you.

Yudhvir
Mark Carroll
2018-04-15 08:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mehma Sarja
I think what Jan is saying is sometimes we go to the hardware store for a
particular task, like weather proofing the home. And sometimes we go to the
store just to see what they have and you might want without a particular
project in mind.
Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task. A wiki
might give you ideas that did not occur to you.
Do note though that OpenBSD, unusually among my limited experience, has
some great "general overview" manpages that reference others that are
more about specific tasks, netintro(4) for example whose SEE ALSO yields
fruitful exploration. (Other pages like usb(4) have plenty of references
in other sections too.) Or, for configuring software, the packages often
put good ideas into some examples/ directory that show how to realize
various things. Admittedly it can take a bit of time to really sit and
study this stuff but there are already ideas out there in these places
and a fair few of the broader topics also get a more obvious-at-a-glance
treatment in the also-preexisting OpenBSD FAQ whose outline is well
worth reading to see what's possible. Of course, a further source of
ideas is the topics that arise on this list.

-- Mark
Stuart Henderson
2018-04-16 08:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mehma Sarja
Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task.
What do you mean, "as opposed to woman pages"?

In this context it is simply short for "manual".
Mehma Sarja
2018-04-16 15:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
It is meant as a play on words, a light hearted comment. I see too many
"shit" and "fuck" comments in posts these days from people trying to sound
important when the subject matter is not.

Mehma
---
Post by Stuart Henderson
Post by Mehma Sarja
Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task.
What do you mean, "as opposed to woman pages"?
In this context it is simply short for "manual".
IL Ka
2018-04-16 15:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
woman (with out man) is tool used in Emacs to read manual pages with out of
actually running man

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/woman.html
:)
Post by Mehma Sarja
It is meant as a play on words, a light hearted comment. I see too many
"shit" and "fuck" comments in posts these days from people trying to sound
important when the subject matter is not.
Mehma
---
Post by Stuart Henderson
Post by Mehma Sarja
Man pages, as opposed to woman pages, help one accomplish a task.
What do you mean, "as opposed to woman pages"?
In this context it is simply short for "manual".
Ve Telko
2018-01-04 22:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Andreas,

I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2

I started with reading FAQ and mailing lists (mostly tech and misc) history.
I also searched for some other articles on OpenBSD but I very soon 
understood, that there are very few and that this is absolutely another 
world, than Linux.

Now after several weeks I use Google only occasionally, I stopped using 
stackoverflow et. al. I'm just reading FAQ, man pages, dotfiles and gists
on Github and if I need to ask for help I ask people in OpenBSD Jumpstart 
group in Telegram or people on Twitter. They are very friendly
and willing to help with anything.

Don't spend your time or energy on something like Arch Linux wiki.

Ve.
Anthony Campbell
2018-01-05 09:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ve Telko
Hi Andreas,
I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2
I started with reading FAQ and mailing lists (mostly tech and misc) history.
I also searched for some other articles on OpenBSD but I very soon 
understood, that there are very few and that this is absolutely another 
world, than Linux.
Now after several weeks I use Google only occasionally, I stopped using 
stackoverflow et. al. I'm just reading FAQ, man pages, dotfiles and gists
on Github and if I need to ask for help I ask people in OpenBSD Jumpstart 
group in Telegram or people on Twitter. They are very friendly
and willing to help with anything.
Don't spend your time or energy on something like Arch Linux wiki.
Ve.
I also arrived here from Linux, a little over 3 years ago in my case,
though it was a gradual switch taking about 6 months to be complete.
I've been impressed by the stability of -current compared with Arch and
Debian sid.

I agree that where you find support for Obsd is a major difference from
Liuux. In addition to the resources mentioned above I'd recommend
www.daemonforums.org as suggested in Absolute OpenBSD. I read this site
regularly and I've consistently found people there to be knowledgeable,
helpful, and patient.

Once or twice I've emailed the maintainer of a package I was having
trouble with and found them very helpful.

A.
--
Anthony Campbell http://www.acampbell.uk
Jean-Michel Pouré
2018-01-05 09:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:22:58 +0100
Post by Ve Telko
I installed OpenBSD on Oct. 16. 2017 after 18 years in Linux motivated by 
reading an article from Derek Sivers on OpenBSD 6.1/6.2
This is exactly my profile: running GNU/Linux since 1998
(don't remember exactly "when"), I just migrated to OpenBSD.

A French site helped me a lot: https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php

It offers OpenBSD man pages and additional articles (in French):
https://wiki.obsd4a.net/doku.php#documentations_par_nos_soins

I could also ask questions on their forum.

Some traditional questions that I needed support on:
* pf migration.
* How to resize a partition // Dual boot installer with Linux.
* how to mount a FAT USB drive.
* How to install XCFE.
* How to customize the installer.
* How to burn a CD.

So I don't agree with your point here: although OpenBSD man pages truely are the best
in the world, there is a need for a third-party technical site publishing articles.

I might be interested in launching/running such a site, as the infrastructure seems
very minimal and as written previously success relies mainly on close maintenance.

Kind regards,
--
Jean-Michel Pouré <***@poure.com>
Mike Burns
2018-01-05 13:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* pf migration.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/index.html
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* How to resize a partition // Dual boot installer with Linux.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* how to mount a FAT USB drive.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#foreignfs
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* How to install XCFE.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* How to customize the installer.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
* How to burn a CD.
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq13.html#burnCD
Post by Jean-Michel Pouré
So I don't agree with your point here: although OpenBSD man pages truely are the best
in the world, there is a need for a third-party technical site publishing articles.
Why must it be third-party? OpenBSD accepts patches to the FAQ.
Rodrigo Mosconi
2018-01-05 01:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
OpenBSD already has a good faq, manpages and books.
Both the FAQ and manpages receives updates, even for non-developers as
patchs.
I remember that an list member provided an faq update because a change on
ifconfig.

IMHO, I think that there is no need for an wiki. Just improve the FAQ
(that is plain
HTML!!!, no some sort of 'custom markdown'). Just send a patch.

Also the manpages are great, yesterday I used ypldap.conf(5) to setup a lab
to try to
make openbsd as a FreeIPA client (no flame war, please). In fact, I only
used the
manpages for YP . But I need info pages, pkg-readme, and some old article
of
kerberos from bsdmagazine to setup the kerberos part (that is not in base
anymore).

Some weeks ago, I used the manpages to setup an two-factor auth (ssh-key +
password).
On the same day, I used another manpage and pkg_readme to setup TOTP
passwords.
And on the login.conf(5) you can find how to use OTP+password to ssh in,
OTP to sudo and
password only to change own password (yes, it's an crazy setup, but I
learned how to do it)

Not OpenBSD related, but I learned a lot of perl just by using the tutorial
manpages, and I
still use some perl*tut to resolve some doubt. At that time I was using
FreeBSD, and there
docs (handbook) are also a good source of information. The chapter of BIND
DNS is very
good for a newbie sysadmin.

As I said, there is no need to create an wiki. We, the users
non-developers, need to submit
the missing parts from the faq or manpages or some configuration to put in
/etc/examples.


Att,
Mosconi
Karel Gardas
2018-01-05 19:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Not bad idea, but when speaking about OpenBSD I would rather recommend to update/fix/enhance OpenBSD's own man collection.
who one
2018-01-05 19:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
imho use the official documentation, not separated wiki. this is the right way.
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 at 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Not bad idea, but when speaking about OpenBSD I would rather recommend to update/fix/enhance OpenBSD's own man collection.
Duncan Patton a Campbell
2018-01-08 01:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Just my two bits here.. some open, running, example systems might
add more than just a wiki; a documented installion with a visible
config..?

Dhu

On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:17:51 +0000
Post by Andreas Thulin
Hi all!
Thought I'd create an OpenBSD wiki somewhere, where anyone (especially
non-developers like myself) could create and edit tutorials for stuff
non-developers like myself would find useful. I find that sometimes
existing tutorials become outdated, and was thinking that a wiki would make
updates easier.
Before I go and create anything - are there already a place similar to what
I'm describing, where I could get myself involved? (I'm too junior to start
suggesting changes and updates to the docs on OpenBSD.org, and I'm not sure
they should be used for what I want to achieve.)
I know this comes out as yet another "let's start another project no one is
asking for", but please be gentle with flaming me - I honestly want to
contribute to the community to the extent of my abilities.
Cheers,
Andreas
--
Je suis Canadien. Ce n'est pas Francais ou Anglaise.
C'est une esp`ece de sauvage: ne obliviscaris, vix ea nostra voco;-)

http://babayaga.neotext.ca/PublicKeys/Duncan_Patton_a_Campbell_pubkey.txt
Vivek Vinod
2018-04-12 05:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Offtopic -

I installed cowsay and erroneously thought there was an error in the manpage. Looked up cowsay in ports and wrote an email to the maintainer. The email bounced back.

Who would one email to in such a case?

Vivek

  Original Message  
From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: 12 April 2018 6:08 AM
To: ***@bsdly.net
Cc: ***@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: Community-driven OpenBSD tutorials wiki?
Post by Peter N. M. Hansteen
If you think you don't have the seniority to start submitting patches
when you see a bug (even a typo in a man page or the faq), you're most
likely wrong. Your first efforts will not be perfect of course, but if
you put in the effort and are able to learn from constructive criticism,
it's likely sooner or later you will be adding real value.
This.  I once submitted a patch to update THE PUBLIC WEBSITE (I
replaced some broken links with archived versions) and it was approved
without demur and on the website the next day.  If you have a change
to make and a patch to implement it, you can shape OpenBSD's future,
even if it's just to make sure the website has no broken links.
That's what keeps me coming back.
Stuart Henderson
2018-04-12 07:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vivek Vinod
Offtopic -
I installed cowsay and erroneously thought there was an error in the manpage. Looked up cowsay in ports and wrote an email to the maintainer. The email bounced back.
Who would one email to in such a case?
The ports mailing list.
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